When the Earthen Ring decides to resurrect Thunderaan to replace the fallen Al'Akir , a shaman adventurer takes Thunderfury from the corpse of its last wielder — a dwarf warrior called Wray who died while facing Ragemaw [1] — in Azsuna and brings it to the Vortex Pinnacle. It is the culmination of a challenging and very expensive quest chain. The quest chain begins after looting the left or the right half of the [ Bindings of the Windseeker ] , which drop off Baron Geddon and Garr respectively, in Molten Core.
Upon looting either of these, travel to Silithus and talk with Highlord Demitrian. He will hand over the [ Vessel of Rebirth ] which starts the quest chain. Bring a raid when returning with the required items to Demitrian because he will summon Thunderaan , who promptly attacks.
Deliver this to the now rather cowed Highlord, and he will make Thunderfury. Thunderfury is a vicious sword, crafted from elementium and containing a crackling electrical core that might be all that remains of Prince Thunderaan. The hilt is unusually long, wrapped in black dragon hide, and studded with small spikes of black dragon bone.
See Legendary Legion equipment. Wowpedia Explore. Main Page All Pages. World of Warcraft. Classic Vanilla It is in other words VERY expensive and time consuming. In order to smelt all this into the elementium bars you need, your guild must clear BWL up to Ebonroc. After killing the last trash before Ebonroc you are left with Krixix.
Have a priest mind control him, and he will teach whoever needs to melt elementium bars. He is hostile, so kill him when the MC wears off. When you got your elementium bars, your essence and both of the bindings, take them to the highlord in Silithus and Thunderaan will be summoned. Bring a raid as you need to defeat him. Loot the Dormant Wind Kissed Blade from him and bring it to the questgiver. Comment by Viertel The screenshot with the Orc Priest is priceless.
Comment by I have read through what you people were saying and yet i haven't heard you guys talk about the time when blizz made thunderfury black Comment by ok, so is only one person able to use a legendary at a time per server? Comment by Fredzilla I want this sword if only because its cool and legendary.
Comment by i need to know, where is the initial quest to start the entire quest line for thunderfury? Comment by 2OfDiamonds molten core is in blackrock mountain, searing gorge.
Comment by daweedian I am rogue and i am mostly PvP and i don't raid much so i don't know much about tanking, but i wander would it be good for warriors to have Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom or Romulo's Poison Vial or even both with their TF.
Wouldn't it make great threat! I am not sure how often those trinkets proc, but i think that 3 different nature procs with TF's decreased nature resistance make more threat than any TBC tanking weapon! Comment by i wound like to ask if this sword is good for rogues? Comment by Does this sword exist in patch 2. Comment by I just got to say. This thing is badass. Comment by I had this sword before Burning Crusade It was good then but now it is too week, I still have it in my bank though.
Running around IF with it makes me feel Comment by exbest After two years, I finally got mine tonight. I used it tonight in BT, and had no issues at all with threat, maybe a minor drop, if any, I had my whole raid looking out and told them to tell me if there was any kind of significant difference in threat to tell me and I'd switch back to my normal weapon Brutalizer and nobody said a word all night..
Granted you might want the extra stam for some fights, but as a whole, I didn't notice any problems at all. In my opinion, it's still worth getting especially if you've been trying for it for a long time. Comment by daweedian I asked same question before, but no one answered to me and my comment got deleted, so i will ask it again!
What if warrior use this sword in combination with Romulo's poison vial and with Darkmoon card: Maelstrom , wouldn't it make great threat since thunderfury have proc that lowers nature resistance and those trinkets proc nature dmg.
Have anyone tried this? Comment by how do u get the link for like Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Strength links or did they take that out. Comment by Matomeo I wonder if anyone got any leads from the beta on rather or not a DK will be able to use this baby?
Comment by Nihilum used TF all the way to BT, so if you know how to tank in the first place, you shouldn't have too many agro problems with TF. Imo, its the coolest looking weapon ever made in MMO history, so I would definitely get it if I had the chance.
Comment by did anyone notice that it looks a bit similar to the Energy Sword from the Halo series? Comment by There seems to be a lot of people wondering if Thunderfury is still obtainable. In my post I will clear up a few things. Anyone can "loot" the bindings, but the only classes that can use it are Warriors, Paladins, Hunters, and Rogues. This is written on the bindings. In Patch 3. Krixix must be mind controlled by a Priest and can teach a miner of skill or more "Smelt Elementium. If you recieve a binding, your best bet is to petition a GM and ask if they can assist you in the situation.
Some people have reported now that you can only learn Smelt Elementium if you have a piece of the binding, I do not know this for sure though. Comment by looks on the 3d thing holy hell thats one handed?
Comment by I think the real question here is, what does it disenchant into? Comment by eggbeater As a prot pally i was able to solo Garr and Baron Geddon. Garr was pretty easy with 10 man naxx gear but Baron was much more difficult. I wore my holy gear and basically auto attacked and healed myself as he died.
It was important to be at full HP before you blew up or he could combo you from a crit bomb and fall damage. I got as low as 1k hp at one point but with seal of wisdom and divine plea I never went oom. Comment by I'm surprised to see that no one has mentioned yet that as it stands now - Elementium Bars are impossible to make.
Everyone who knew how to smelt it forgot how and the mob that teaches it in BWL is bugged and can no longer teach it. So unless you had the bars already - there's no more Thunderfurys till this gets fixed.
Comment by Contradiktionz It is confirmed that Death Knights can indeed do the quests for, and equip the Thunderfury. Comment by Nirron Death Knights are able to obtain this weapon, but its not clear if it is working as intended.
They might have added the class to the weapon or might have forgotten to put a restriction on it for Death Knights. Comment by Madril I need to know this! Comment by im sry for my bad english skillz. Thr is also Ashbringer which can not be claimed bcuz it is now in the hands of the paladin Tirion Fordring once again sry if i spelt that rong im starting to think that Blizzards so called "bug" is actually either A: a posible introduction to new legendary items or something of the sort, or B: Blizz just decided to cut out those legendary items all together.
Comment by AzureShadow42 Anyone with a warrior who still has this and Sulfuras lying around from endgame Classic, I strongly suggest taking the Titan's Grip talent and dual-wielding them for the epicness of it. And make sure you put a screenshot of it on here, too! The tooltip will be updated to show this next patch. Comment by davies Confirmed: Deathknights can obtain this weapon despite the 'Class' list. Comment by If I am to try to get this sword from scratch, where do I have to begin? Comment by This is now possible for any one to weild just waiting to see a lock or mage pop up with one.
Comment by Just got it on my DK 30 minutes ago after farming it for a couple of weeks, should consider myself lucky got 1st part 1st try and 2nd after 4 tries. Comment by So if I understand this all well..
Or do I just need the 2 bindings to compare it with each other? Comment by Heres what i need to know. People have been telling me that soon blizzard will be taking away the class specifics on the weapon and the quest line. So does this mean that my warlock can aquire TF? I already have the 10 bars. Just need the bindings. But if anyone can confirm this for me or prove that i am completely wasting my time, i would greatly appreciate it. Comment by Emserz I've over the last 4 days bought the mats for the elementium bars via AH, heres a overlook of the prices atm: The 10 elementium ore's only cost me about g buying them off AH.
Luckily i have a transmute master alch and got off all the arcanite bars for around g worth of mats, got aprox 20 arcanite bars free from the transmute proc. I got the 30 elemental flux's i needed for g 12g a piece because of exalted rep. The fiery core's cost me about 50g a piece.
Soloed Garr and Geddon for the bindings, 3 people to take down rag for the essence, and soloed Thunderaan after I got all the mats together. Comment by Its pretty funny actually.. I decided to whip out my TF from my bank and tank 25man naxx with it the other day Comment by Freechoice I certainly want to tank with this weapon simply because of the proc.
Comment by Undiscovered I really cant understand why they have removed the class restrictions on this item. It maybe was a bit pointless ever having hunter on there but i mean whats next why not add Death Knight tier one and two or even better remove the class restrictions on the Warglaives of Azzinoth i would be well game for farming for them.
Female Troll hunter with 2 Warglavies would be the sex Its in a way a sad end to such a fantasic weapon when you think of the time effort whole guilds put into running MC and BWL. I know it had to come with the level cap increasing etc etc but evertime i see or hear of a Death Knight or some clueless idiot running round with this makes me a little upset. Dont get me wrong if a binding dropped for me i would take and be very happy kinda serve to remind me of the epic times we had back in vanilla wow To all that are farming this item Best of luck.
All I seem to read is DK's commenting on "oh I went into MC and the bindings dropped, I've only been in there twice" or others stating "oh yay both bindings on one run". I've done a hell alot of MC's, pre bc on my hunter, bc on my paladin and now wrath on my warrior. All while doing more than 1 run per reset and I have yet to see them. Thankfully last reset the eye off rag dropped, after a week or two more weeks of farming mountains he'll be the first BE paladin I see with Hand of Rag. Comment by remotettl in classic this weapon was Comment by Warlock with Thunderfury equipped!
It may have been the happiest day of my gaming life. The only complaint i have is that the fight with Thunderaan was a little anti-climactic, but i do remember even at level 60 it was not all that difficult. Regardless, i do love running around with it, it really is a beautiful sword.
Next up: Offhand warglaive. Comment by Now that all I'm waiting on is my second binding I have been reading up quite a bit about this sword. Seeing as Paladins threat generation is affected more by the weapons base DPS I'm wondering if any of my fellow tankadins have bothered giving this a try for even trash?
My 2nd and much more important question for every one who has the pleasure of equipping this weapon is: What enchant looks hands down coolest on it? Comment by greengoo For anybody who can't be bothered to get a group for Thundaren. I got my second binding last night then went to Silithus and I can confirm he is definitely soloable. HE only has , hp and barely hits for anything.
Comment by It would be really cool for a Warrior to dual-wield this and Sulfuras. Comment by 1 Binding of the Windseeker left dropped by Baron Geddon. I was lucky to get the both bindings from one Molten Core run so the hardest part for me was getting the ores.
Thats it! I also added screenshot. Comment by wildowned This weapon is really nice to tank with, still it is a lvl 60 Legendary weapon. I havent seen any tanks with it latly, but it holds aggro really nice. Garr is simple, a tank who can AoE hold aggro just do their stuff.
Comment by Ive been running this place weekly. GL on your bindings, theres already enough posts on what items are needed. I, the mage, am doing these runs to get the thunderfury myself, i made this group with friends and they have no problem with the first set of bindings going to me. Comment by Crazyfish both bindings in 4 mc runs.. Took me about 8 months in total to gather everything. Just wanted to post to say I finally got it. Also, it gets used in bg's. Seen it make pallies bubble and mages ice-block.
Reading everything was a good idea. Took me around 8 months to get it, what took me so long is the elementium ores. Most ppl have no idea what Bwl is and they think it can be done by a couple of lvl 65 or I had a really hard time finding the ppl willing to raid bwl.
For the bindings I was very lucky, I got my second binding one week after the first. Thunderaan is easly soloable by any deathknights, just use death strike to heal yourself.
For those thinking about getting it, it is totally worth it. I get whispers all the time about it and I even raid ulduar 25 with it and still do good dps. Plus the debuff it puts on the mobs is awesome, looks very nice. Comment by I'm thinking, what if a fury warrior were to dual wield this and sulfuras, hand of ragnaros? Comment by Arkhan Would the new epic Ulduar enchants be applicable to this?
The enchant states level 75, but is that "min req" level or iLevel? TF is iLvl Comment by ZanathKariashi Yes actually. The uldaur enchants are min lvl 60, but require the character to be 75 for them to become active, so technically you could. I'm just 4 ingots away from my hammer and need that eye, and I'm got my sights on Thunderfury as well Comment by Ultragrisen Ohh so much i long for Blizz to implement an item like this again! Think many feels the same as me. Dont care what kind of item it is..
Comment by Finally obtained this item after round about 3 months farmin :D. Comment by is still possible make this legendary sword now in wow? Comment by This and sulfurus will probably be lost in cataclysm since Rag is gonna move.
Kited thunderaan to orgrimmar too, That took a long time. Either way, it's always fun to read peoples reactions when they see i giant tornado on XT or somthing fun. Comment by Saurfang uses this as a toothpick. Would be cool if you could Dual Wield it. Comment by daryon After 31 MC clears i am still not giving up , that garr binding will drop eventualy. Now lets talk about that weapon , i got a question to those Dks that managed to make it , as the new dual frost spec is this good as an offhand , i mean is it good enough to have it on just for some fun 5 mans and pvp?
Thanks for your answers. Comment by So I got the Right half of the bindings last week and this week an Eye of Sulfuras. Comment by germieb I have finally obtained tf on my warrior after 3 years, I have been tanking heroics with it and I am able to pull a steady 5k tps still at level 80 and around dps in these 5 mans.
I got it at around 4am and stayed up till like 8am fighting thunderan and stairing at the thing I waited so long to create. Would I farm for it again? Prob not Was it worth it? Yes Have I found any uses for it at level 80? Yea it makes it easier to pickup the whelps on onyxia, it makes a lot of people break out in a jealous rage at you, and its fun to humilate people when you finish them off with it in arena.
Comment by Blackriver This weapon was originally intended to be the Ashbringer, and the weapon's model is called Ashbringer. This explains the bones and almost Scourge-esque appearance of the weapon. However, a different model was created for Ashbringer and Thunderfury instead became the first Legendary Weapon.
This was most likely because the events and quests involving the Ashbringer hadn't been fully planned out at the time, but players were eager to see a legendary item in the game. Comment by I'm a rogue in the process of getting this, would it be a good aggro getter with tricks ofc? I want it either way, wanted this sword ever since I laid eyes on it. Comment by I really want them to do a remake of the weapon for the current WoW Or at least in the new expansion they seem to focus on the balance of nature It was every Sword Wielders Dream It was awesome and It was the best looking thing in the world I just wish there was an updated version of it Comment by I just hope the day never comes where i see a "same model as" tab on this page.
Comment by vexew Sigh, coming back to WoW. Watching you need archievement's for everything. Im probably not the only old-wow-geezer who's been there and ran Molten Core for month's for this weapon. Only to see it phase into nothingness, with it's fading i feel like i myself is fading away together with it, the next generation of WoW kid's is pushing all oldschool players away from what we once called our own game, now this game is alien to me, it's not WoW.
Stupid kids. Comment by Oirsgposurgt Still badass weapon for PvP! I equip TF with my combat rogue in offhand, and i have to say that I am really satisfied with it.
It is useful in battlegrounds and in instances, too. Nevertheless, the whispers I recieve still worth the price I paid for this awesome weapon! Comment by Westy Did somebody say? Man this thing's fun for trade chat.
Comment by Obediah One year of farming, finally got second half tonight! Comment by I'm still lvl 70 cuz i don't have wotlk,and I must say that this weapon can replace a bt offhand on hemo or combat spec with ease. The 1. Too bad i didn't have it in vanilla WoW Damn my game breaks Comment by rospy can i ask?
Comment by Valid question, After looking at the items Level and required level, it would look as if this could be enchanted with WOTLK enchants such as Bladeward of Blood draining. But has anyone actually tested this? I would like to know if it works. Thank you. S to answer the question above, as of Patch 3. I am currently doing the quest, so it is A-OK. Comment by Can i got Feast of Strength for it if i am Druid? Comment by rospy guys i have a problem Solonas warrior from stormscale u can add me and speak to me here and in to the game Comment by pizzakid Just finally finished this baby tonight, it being my second legendary.
I'm currently dueling it with the offhand warglaive of azzinoth on my warrior Giancarlo on Scarlet Crusade :. Comment by Quick question, In Cataclysm, since Blackrock Spire and Molten Core and everything is blowing up, will this weapon and quest still be obtainable. Will the Molten Core instance be gone? Comment by Evading my grasp playing a Night Elf hunter in Vanilla and then Moving onto another server and then another eventual faction reroll along with ANOTHER server and then another server and another server, I've finally gotten to say that I have both bracers.
Comment by Bababooeyhs Okay. I created an account just to add my 2c. After roughly months of weekly farming I completed Thunderfury. I bought all the elementium ore off the AH for g each and spammed trade for someone that could smelt it. I got my first binding off Garr about a month in. I just got the one off Geddon last night. Solo'd MC for the essence.
Every other second mobs are engulfed in tornadoes and zapped. It's really cool looking. I was debating whether or not I was going to quit WoW and told myself I would if Geddon's binding didn't drop this week. Oddly enough..
I had to equip a new pair of pants irl. Hang in there if you're farming this! It's worth it. Didn't have any threat problems. I love this thing! Uploaded a picture on here also. Edit again Finally, Sunday night, I got the last binding I needed. I'll agree with what others have said: you just have to keep farming. My first binding dropped from Baron Geddon about a year and a half ago and since then it's been a minute MC run ever since.
Things are much easier now in regards to the other mats. Elementium ore still represents a hurdle but a good group and some smart Auction House watching will serve you well. Really it's the binding drop rate that will frustrate you more than anything. There are times you think you'll abandon the quest.
You'll rant to friends, GM's and anyone who will listen. In then end it doesn't matter. It's about playing the odds and plugging away at the runs, week after week, until you get what you need. Someone last night asked why I was using it as my offhand when there were better items available. My reply: "Because I have it. Good luck! You will need at least two players to defeat the first boss, Razorgore the Untamed.
This encounter cannot be soloed due to the mechanics of the fight where one player must Mind Control Razorgore and hatch all the eggs in the room.
Another player must protect Razorgore and not allow him to die. You will need this plan to Smelt Elementium. Auction Houses Check out both faction's auction halls: If you find a good deal on an opposite faction's auction hall: Have another player meet you at any neutral auction house, such as Booty Bay to trade them.
Tips on Arcanite Bars : If you can't find any on the auction halls, you'll find yourself looking a good spot to farm Arcane Crystals , which are needed to transmute.
The best place I found is in Dire Maul East. After you kill Alzzin the Wildshaper , an exit cave will open. In that cave, there are a few nodes that may or may not contain Arcane Crystals. I found this to be quick because you can rush straight to him and the mining nodes are always there. Sometimes you'll get lucky and there will be a Arcane Crystal in each one It's random so keep the faith and grind away.
Comment by Deactivated It is easy to get the bindings you need to be committed. I ran MC every week for over a year and I finally got the two bindings. Because each Binding is a 3. BWL is not over hard, it can be 3 manned, but you will need to follow strats for the 1st and 2nd bosses. Ebonroc is the only other boss that you need to follow strat. When your turn in all four items in Silithis, the world boss will spawn, but he only has just iver K hp.
He will drop the raw sword, you hand it in and get Thuderfury. Image Here. Comment by dk I got both bindings in my first ever MC run solo dk, the bars took me a week to get a run of BWL and ah ores.
I thought getting the bars was the hardest part but after reading the above comments, i was extremely lucky. Comment by this would be awesome for a 60 twink.
Comment by Both binding dropped in my run today, I only needed the left one. Well I still didnt kill Rag. PS : first time in over 5 years gameplay I see 2 bindings drop in the same run. Comment by For achievement you need to receive sword, quest reward. I've got my achievement in the moment that i receive quest item. Recorded my event and it's on youtube atm.
Comment by LuckyBandit Everyone is gonna down rate me for this but idc, got both halves in one run. Comment by Chromell Finished the quest for Thunderfury one week ago with my paladin and just received the feat of strength upon equipping the sword. I still am farming both Bindings on my mage though. A must have for any collector in the game. I also am farming the materials for the Sulfuron Hammer on my mage, given I already have the Eye, and was concerned about getting the feat due to mages being unable to equip maces.
Worried about this, I ticketed a GM and got the response they are working to fix this issue. I got this answer before the latest patch and I speculate classes that cannot equip the weapons will be granted the feat of strength upon receiving the item. Comment by LuckyBandit I believe it used to be that way but when the patch hit that lets you trade things around to members in the raid they changed it so as an example the Grand Black War Mammoth couldnt be passed around the raid so everyone could get the Feat of Strength.
Comment by weezel Just completed my second Thunderfury on my Death-knight. Comment by Wrok hey, just wanted to make something clear. Comment by Last week, I got my first binding off Geddon. This week, I got the other binding off Garr. Took 4 weeks to get both since I started going to MC. I got all the mats this week as well including the ores. I had to buy the last 4 ores from Alliance side since Horde side was low on supply and the one person that told me he had 4 ores wanted 1k each for them.
But I did get the sword. Put the tanking 1h rune on it for DKs and went to Wintergrasp to play with it. Had fun. Then went to Heroic Nexus to tank with it. I held agro pretty well. I just need alittle more hit to lower the number of times I missed. Overall, I am glad I got it. Cost alot in mats for the ores, but well worth it. Comment by nemspyda Did they change the droprate on these bindings? I just solo cleared MC on my bear and had both bindings drop in the same run Shame I apparently need to equip Thunderfury for the FoS.
Comment by notbear I've seen a mage with this. Comment by Just got this a week ago, Lovely weapon Indeed. Comment by I've been at this for 34 weeks on 2 characters. I never intended to even try for this but on a random pug I won a binding on a lvl 60 alt pally off of Baron oct I read a few forums and found this was easily soloable at So I started to solo Garr each week on my pally, and both Garr and Baron on my main warrior.
Last week I scored Garr's binding on my pally and this week just now I got Baron's binding for my Warrior! Back to back weeks of creating thunderfury! I was solo'ing Garr on my pally ret spec'd healing myself as art of war procs and solo'ing baron with FR gear on my warrior in zerker stance using a blood thirst glyph. Glad I got this all done before Cataclysm - rumored to be removing MC since rag was moving.
Comment by Vyxarael Got both bindings and finally the sword after 11 MC clears. Comment by Neroh Just got the right half of Thunderfury from Garr on my Death knight, can't wait for Baron to drop the left half so I can wield this awesome sword.
Comment by Faell Quest Line This item is the final reward of a challenging and very expensive quest line, which can be started by a hunter, paladin, rogue, or warrior. Comment by pogiman Finally equipped this weapon after years of farming. It was well worth the time. Comment by bennymoo18 For everyones information now you do NOT get the Achievment for completing this quest only Equipping it gives the Feat of Strength Comment by I submitted an image I made with caps of 12 enchants on Thunderfury.
From the dressing room This was the 1 thing I came here looking for and didn't find many in the screenshots, so I hope someone get's use out of it. I have a feeling it wont be added but I uploaded it to image shack as well. Comment by With the coming back of Rag and his raid, maybe we can see this sword come back? An improved one for level 85 tanks.
Comment by Chromell I wonder if Al'Akir will emote anything if a raid member wields this during the encounter it was informed he will be a fightable boss in Cata like Medivh's father reacts if someone in the group has his son's staff.
Comment by Sethaku I swear I saw this sword and it was orange Same goes for Thunderfury, if the Left Bindings can finally drop, I'm waiting for Cata to finish it and give my guild the achievement. It happened to us last night, and we were in total shock!
Working on getting weapons created as we speak :D. Comment by I got that on my Warr The ores will you find in Blackwing Lair called Elementium ores, can't really remember the mats needed to craft the bars :. A guy in Blackwing Lair drops the recipe you need mining for it.
Comment by Have had one binding for a long long time. Went to solo MC as usual this week Both bindings dropped. And The Eye. Already had Garr's binding and have Sulfuras. My brother was pissed. Comment by Kayinu Surprisingly i got both my bindings during that period as well.
Went into MC on a tuesday, got the binding from Baron, went again the next day after the reset, and Garr's dropped. I still easily pull k TPS as a prot warr in heroics with mostly gear. It's an absolute blast, it made tanking heroics a lot more enjoyable, i actually enjoy doing HoR now. I do about k Revenge crits with this thing, whereas with my Marrowgar mace i pull about k revenge crits. Comment by Hannes37 Guide to getting Thunderfury.
You can just get both before you start the quest if you want 2. Go with them to Highlord Demitrian in Silithus and talk to him, you will get a vessel you have to select the chat options before you get it , which you right-click and then return to Highlord Demitrian.
Return with all of the materials to Highlord Demitrian, in which turn he will summon Thundeeran on the plains behind you. Kill Thundeeran, he will drop his sword as a quest item, which you then right-click on for a quest. Comment by 3clipse Still one of the coolest looking weapons in game imo. Comment by I'm looking at the 10th screenshot, and I see a humanoid tiger form. How does that happen? Comment by goldtail did some1 say Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker?
Comment by daihe Thunderfury is proof enough that two-handed weapon should be bigger! Comment by Himinbjorg Was fortunate enough to get it on my Rogue, finally.
Did MC with a Resto Shammy friend. Garr dropped it on run number 2 and Geddon on run number 5. I farmed the thing for months on my warrior, but never got any binding. I actually made this post to let other Rogues know that Thunderaan is easily soloable with Recuperate, did as Assassination without any glyphs just logged after patch day, did a quick spec and ran there to finish the quest.
Comment by Cronus After patch 4. Comment by Skaree As of 4.
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